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When employers treat their workforce as no more than a resource to be used until depleted, the outcome is all too predictable – burnout, overwhelm, disengagement, and attrition.
And yet, argues Megan Barbier, CHRO at Xactly, many HR teams continue to fall into the trap of extraction. The answer, Barbier proposes, is a “regenerative employee culture” – one in which the return on investment (ROI) for employees is prioritized.
With this approach, the workplace becomes an ecosystem where the capacity of people is restored and expanded rather than consumed, leading to a sustained competitive advantage for the organization.
The HR chief sets out how Xactly embraces this approach, why it is so beneficial, and offers first-hand advice on making the shift towards a regenerative employee culture.
Host: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of the HR Grapevine Podcast. I'm your host, Benjamin Broomfield, head of content here at HR Grapevine. And I'm joined today by Megan Barbier, Chief human resources Officer at Xactly, an intelligent revenue solutions company. Megan is a high impact HR leader focused on value creation through human capital with a proven track record of transforming workplace cultures. She specializes in global HR leadership, strategic workforce planning, and HR technology integration, empowering teams to thrive and delivering measurable results. Today, we're going to be looking at why employees are looking for return on investment in the workplace, what this means, and how CHROS can implement what we're calling a regenerative employee culture. So a really great episode lined up. But first and foremost, welcome, Megan. Thank you for joining us.
Guest: Thank you. Benjamin.
Host: Well, first and foremost, it would be great to talk about, perhaps why you feel modern human capital management, modern human resources may often fall into the trap of what we're calling extraction.
Guest: Yeah. I mean, this is something that I spend a lot of time thinking about. It consumes a big portion of my brain on a daily basis. And I think one of the things that always, you know, shines through on this is that I do think that we use words like burnout and, you know, quiet quitting. And I think these the name of this, these concepts themselves are inhibiting our ability to solve them. I really don't think that burnout is a workload issue. I think that we have this situation where we have employers that are treating human resources and people's time and energy as a resource to be depleted, and I think that's what's causing a lot of these, you know, these symptoms of of the modern workplace. And so the approach that I like to take is that I need to keep in mind that employees are no longer trading loyalty for security. I think now people engage in the modern workplace with this idea of, I have time and energy and I want to get growth and development out of that. And I think organizations that don't recognize that this unspoken social contract of work is changing. You're operating on this expired contract. So I think even reframing some of the challenges that we see that, you know, may be mislabeled as engagement or burnout. You know, I think that would lead us to taking a wellness day or balancing your, your boundaries. That's all well and good, but I think the deeper psychological levers at play here are that employees are now recalibrating the contract in which they show up to work with.
Host: Mhm. Definitely. I think perhaps certainly in some HR cycles, there's maybe that growing understanding that this approach of being a bit more sort of reactive in dealing with some of these issues and yeah, sort of slapping that that one policy or sort of one off program in place is suddenly going to solve everything. Whereas actually we need to be taking perhaps a much more deeper view of some of these issues within the workplace. But I mean, what is that risk? When we do view employees as resources that can be used until they're depleted, whether that's for the workforce itself, but also for the organization?
Guest: Yeah, I mean, this is a sneaky problem because I think it compounds over time. So when we have this approach and I say we as an organization, right, an organization is its own organism. And, you know, I think most individuals in knowledge work in tech in particular, are constantly facing this challenge of being asked to do more with less. We've all heard that. I think there's a t shirt or a bumper sticker out there with that slogan. I think we're looking to say, you know, the pace at which change is happening. The pace at which we're being asked to deliver is only accelerating. And have we paused to give back to employees to say, well, what is this creating in the way of your own growth and development? Have we stopped to say that you are giving as much as you are getting. And I don't think a lot of a lot of companies and leaders are necessarily thinking about their very precious human resources in that light. And so this idea that, you know, you can only draw from that well for so long until it's empty. And I think that's also, you know, it's a, it's a lagging indicator. By the time you realize that you're in this extraction cycle, that you're already seeing it on your attrition side, or worse yet, you're seeing it with people that are that are job hugging or they're, they're staying because they feel stuck versus they're staying because they feel compelled that this is a good deal. I am putting in and, and getting out more, if not the same as what I'm delivering to the organization. So, you know, what do we need to thrive, right? We need to know at our core, if I'm an employee, that this exchange feels fair. And I think that there's a lot of things that leaders can do to make sure that we're thinking about our employees as not a resource to be depleted, but as something to be invested and developed that can regenerate, right? That can sustain and scale.
Host: Absolutely. And this is the challenge for modern human resources leaders. Right. And I think, yes, whilst it might feel slightly daunting and overwhelming to have to try and solve the problems we've just spoken through, it's also that really exciting opportunity as well. And I mentioned at the top of this episode, we're really going to be looking at the solution to this in terms of implementing what you call a regenerative employee culture. I love that concept, but perhaps you can break it down for our listeners. What is a regenerative employee culture and how does it flip the script on that conversation?
Guest: Yeah, I mean, I think for so long, we've and I think particularly coming out of these really interesting, you know, this past decade, right, we've had a major pandemic. We've had a lot of focus on, you know, employee wellbeing and engagement, right. I think when we frame this or where we frame this, historically, we've come at it from the angle of resilience. And to be clear, resilience is not regeneration. Resilience is just bouncing back to baseline, where a regenerative culture is that people are leaving interactions and projects and experiences better than they entered them. And I don't think that necessarily involves a massive budget shift. I don't think it necessarily involves, you know, this imbalance of resources being dumped onto this onto this approach. I think it's about intentionality. I think it's about changing our own approach for how we think about work for ourselves as individuals. But also, if you're a leader or if you're a teammate and have have colleagues, how are you? How are you engaging them? I come back to this constantly where I believe that we as a as a human species, we work to add purpose to our time. And so as an organization or as a fellow colleague, how do I meet people where they're at on that front? Are we building an environment where people can honestly say, this job is making me more capable? This job is making me more connected. This job is helping me get to, you know, if we think about the Maslow's hierarchy of needs, that self-actualization employers that can do this, even on a micro level, on a daily level, are going to be leaps and bounds ahead of competition because they're going to be able to connect to, to meaning, right? That's what we're all seeking. Ultimately, we ask a lot of our people, and I want to be always on that, that perspective of what are we giving back other than just a new org chart? Another, you know, another scope, another redesign. How are we actually creating situations where people can leave them better than they entered them?
Host: Well, let's get stuck into that part of the equation. I'd love to hear maybe a couple of examples of how you've gone about doing exactly that at Xactly what are some of the steps that you've taken to maximize the return on investment for employees?
Guest: Yeah. I mean, and this one's funny too, because I feel like it's a bit counterintuitive when we think about ROI, you know, and there's always this drumbeat around retaining, especially your, your, you know, top retention priorities. How do we think about impacting positive retention? And I think what's really interesting is I have found that retention in the best strategy possible is making your people more hireable. It's not making them more dependent on you and your organization and their current job. It's making them more valuable in the market. And as backwards as that may feel, the more people can connect to what they're doing and feel they're getting value of their current role, the more likely they are to stay. It's when that contract gets broken, right? When we fall into that degenerative or that extraction culture where individuals feel like they're putting their blood, sweat and tears into what they're doing and they're not getting a balance back. That's something that's going to ultimately break and they will look elsewhere. So I know from our side, I'm constantly thinking about this in the way of how do I make anyone that engages at Xactly more hireable an employee that's going to thrive and be an MVP in the workforce of the future, how are we investing in those skills? How are we creating opportunities where people feel like I matter? I'm connected to meaningful work. I'm doing my, my purposeful, um, engagement in this role. I think another way that we look at this as well, and I think this is, I mean, I'll, I'll break the code and say AI, and we're going to try to maybe get through this without using the word AI, which is a little oversaturated, but I do think that's an impetus. It's been a catalyst for accelerating a lot of pieces. I think this idea of job description and this is my role. I think the more that we index on these hard lines and swim lanes, the further we're going to fall behind. I think the leaders and the individuals that are engaging in maybe a novel way of approaching what they deliver in terms of value, it goes beyond their job title. It goes beyond what their job description says. How are we thinking about skills and development in the way of a capability cluster or capability portfolio? It's less about, did I go from an icy one to an icy two to an icy three? It's more about, did I get exposed to a problem that I now get to solve? Do I have access to leaders that might challenge how I see the world and inspire me to think differently? Those are all ways that you can very, very easily, like not even changing a process or a workflow. You could do that today in trying to understand what does it mean to, develop people and to engage them and to get them excited about their contributions in the workforce? Again, thinking beyond that job description or this really prescriptive, finite swimlane with which they're allowed to play in opening the aperture on that is typically a really great way to get people excited to want to continue to invest their time and energy for growth and meaning.
Host: Wonderful. You make it sound so easy and so appealing, which is great. But I suppose sort of for, again, the listeners is thinking about, well, what is the reality of taking this kind of approach within the organization? And absolutely, there are clear upsides to thinking about it this way. And we're going to be coming on to some of those in just a moment. But maybe also we're thinking about some of the things that maybe can go wrong or sort of some of the risks if it's not handled properly when taking this approach. So is there anything that you've learned in terms of best practices to consider or even pitfalls to avoid as well? Yeah, potentially. When kind of taking this approach and working on it in the organization.
Guest: Yeah. And to be fair, you know, I think you said something so important, right? This is really easy to talk about in practice. There are there's an incline that you have to climb. And so I think being aware of that first out is, is a really helpful place to start from. I think some other areas, when I think about this idea of creating this regenerative culture where people feel they're investing and they're getting back as much, if not more than they're putting into their organization, there's kind of these three areas that I like to think about. There's one. Do people feel seen? Do people feel stretched and do people feel sustained? And so these areas, I think, are really, really interesting in how we break down every interaction from these micro daily meetings, one on ones slack exchanges to these much bigger initiatives, cross-functional projects. Right. I think all three of those are present throughout. So, you know, is there visibility? Do people understand the value that each one is bringing to the table? Invisible work, I think is I'm on a secret crusade against invisible work, ironically. So it's something I'm thinking about very, very regularly. Do people feel stretched, right? Is there a way that they are growing in a way they consent to? And then do they feel sustained? Right. Like are so often, you know, we have organizations that are working to operate at the next level. And I think one thing some of the best companies do is, is just own it and say, look, we're asking a lot. We have a really big, big hill. We have a big ask. I think the other part of that sentence that often doesn't get completed is, and here's what it's going to mean for you. And I think that reciprocity is something that may be happening. But if you're not speaking it and you're not being very clear about what that is, it can get lost or misinterpreted very, very easily. So kind of coming across those three pillars, I do think that those are the foundations for any, anyone as an individual or any organization at a macro level that wants to create this idea of a regenerative culture. Focusing on those three areas is a really, really great place to start. So it's being intentional about it. It's being able to, to speak explicitly about what those conversations are. And then I think, you know, when we look at this idea of growth and stretching, a common misstep, and I will say this because I have I have learned this lesson the hard way. I'm very guilty of this personally. You know, the engagement survey comes out. People say they want to be developed and they express an interest in growing and training. And people turn to this and crank up the L&D dial, right? So they go to learning and development. They put in a training program, they hire a coach or they put a, you know, an off site together and have, you know, a very exciting, you know, four to eight hour meeting. I think that's something that I would look to move away from. I know it exactly. This is an approach we're taking where, yes, there are L&D components. We do focus on learning and development. I think we also need to think about and engage in ways that learning and development is happening in the workflow. It is not necessarily served by a bolt on check the box type of motion. There are there's value into that, right? There's compliance training. And there's also, you know, ways that you can kind of track and make sure that these learning and development opportunities are spread judiciously throughout the org, but I think there's also a bit where if learning and development and growth need to. They necessitate a step off of the hamster wheel. A lot of people won't take that step one, because either they get busy, they feel they can't, or they can't prioritize in light of other things. I think creating ways that that learning and development can happen in real time in the day to day and the work that you're doing. That's the secret sauce. Because anyone that's engaging, again, you spin up that flywheel. The more I engage, the more I grow, the more I fill my time and energy investment. I get that return on it. So that's something I know that we focus on at Xactly. We are still maturing on that scale. And I fully see that as a direction with the speed and the level of which we need to be developing skills and abilities within our workforce.
Host: That's really useful frameworks. And some piece of advice, I think, for, for the listeners, one of the areas that I always like to cover, especially with this kind of approach, when it's almost sort of a wider cultural approach, the way that you're running the HR function. The work that the team is doing is really thinking about the measurability of it and that side of the conversation, and especially when we're talking about something like the ROI for start for staff as well. Have you found a way to, to sort of capture that improved return on investment for staff to be able to communicate with that with them? And likewise, have you been able to capture the value that this approach has added to Xactly. As a business as well?
Guest: Yeah. And I feel like this one is also another really tricky thing is most things are in HR to measure. The direct correlation for this action is going to result in this return. I think there's a lot of factors at play. And one thing that I have noticed, if you are running a healthy regenerative culture where people feel that they can make that investment and they're going to get that return, I think one of the biggest competitive advantages that you can measure is that it does compound over time. So one of the more obvious ones is your reputation as an employer is going to reflect that, for better or for worse. If you have an environment where people feel they are being cultivated or that they can cultivate their own development, that reputation is going to live within your organization, and it's going to start blossoming outside the walls of your company. So I think that's one area. The other thing that I think it's a little more subtle, but I think you can notice it if you are paying attention, is that employees over sometimes a very short cycle are going to be more creative. They are going to be more engaged, they're going to be more active, and they're going to be more connected to each other and to the work they're doing, especially during difficult times. So when you encounter a crisis, right, you'll see teams that have come out of or that are living in a regenerative culture environment, you are going to see them fare very differently and much, much more positively than organizations that are operating from depleted employee resources from an energy and a time perspective. So I think those are the two markers a little bit trickier. You know, how do you put that on a dashboard? I think that will be somewhat specific to each company's way of measuring certain key metrics and KPIs, but that idea of you will see it and you will feel it gets manifested in the reputation, but also how employees are coming to the table, which I think is really interesting. Another marker that I think is a good telltale sign is that you'll see this show up in very nuanced ways in your retention and the, the corresponding attrition metric. People are staying because they want to, not because they feel stuck. So this concept of job hugging, I know is being discussed and thrown around. I'm sure, you know, many people are familiar with the idea of, I don't really want to stay, but I this is my best option, right? The devil you know. So we're going to hug on this job, even though if it were my choice, I may choose something different for my professional trajectory. I think when you have these regenerative cultures, you see people truly staying because this is what they value. They feel that this is a good investment of their time and energy.
Host: Wonderful. Well, perhaps just the final question is really perhaps looking to, to sort of towards the medium and longer term. Obviously, I think we've spoken through in a really good level of detail, some of the really sort of short term actions that people can take. But you've described this approach as something that can become self-sustaining as well. What does that look like when it's working well enough that it can become self-sustaining for the organization? It sounds exciting. So yeah, it would be great to hear a bit more about that and, and how that can be delivered.
Guest: Yeah. I mean, if you are in a growth mode or hiring the regenerative culture, play is one of the strongest elements you can have in a referral program, right? You have people that are excited about what they're doing. They want to tell their friends and other like minded individuals. And so I think that's something that, again, you can, you can leverage and you can actually enjoy from having these types of cultures. It's a measurement, but it's also a benefit. At the same time, I think other ways that we can look in, in figuring out, you know, how, how do we do this and what is the benefit? You have people that are actually taking initiative. So I don't feel that I'm so crushed by the asks and the demands of my organization, I can ideate, I can see a problem proactively. I think, in cultures that are doing this play really well, whether they they're doing it accidentally or by design. I think that spirit of taking initiative. Right. Can I see around this corner? Can I mobilize a solution without somebody dictating? There's a, there's a problem that you have to go solve. So I think that's a, that's another really amazing element that again, it's a measurement, but it's also a benefit that companies running this play play will enjoy.
Host: Wonderful. Well, Megan, thank you so much for taking the time to join us today on the HR grapevine podcast and for taking us through this concept of the regenerative employee culture, how it can be delivered, some of the pitfalls to avoid, and how to think perhaps about measuring and really looking at the impact it can have in the organization as well. It's been fantastic to hear all of your advice. So thank you so much for taking the time to join us.
Guest: Very welcome. Pleasure to be here with you today, Benjamin.
